2014 Football Season

[Jason]

Nov 27, 2014 20:51:11 GMT -8 Jason said:

That Montana/Marino quote applies so accurately to Brady/Manning. I have no doubt that Brady would not excel anywhere near the level he appears to be if he didn't have Belichick. I would bet the farm and then some if there were a way to actually prove it, but as it is, Brady is going to be in the discussion with the greats by virtually everyone, while I wouldn't even have him in my top ten. Montana is in there because he did what he did in one of the toughest eras for quarterbacks, and also actually did excel outside of Walsh's system. Kansas City will verify my statement.

It is hard to properly judge a system quarterback and apply it to individual performance. Belichick, since he came to New England, has developed a team that suits his system, while all of Manning's coaches have developed teams that are suited for him. That speaks volumes about individual performances, for me. Walsh called the shots in San Francisco, Montana/Young and co. delivered. Belichick called the shots in New England, Brady and co. delivered. Manning called the shots everywhere, Manning delivered. That's why it just isn't even close, for me.

Did I also mention the hype-train for Brady is the most ridiculous any sport has ever seen?

An actual analyst who has a job in the National Football League just made that statement?

[Jason]

And just when I mention the Brady hype-train, some goon from ESPN writes THIS

espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11978067/jj-watt-houston-texans-defensive-end-one-nfl-best-tight-ends

[Jason]

Elliot addressed my comment on TV.

Looking back on it, I was kind of a jerk. Sorry, Elliot.

now.nfl.com/play/d9d21ebd-3049-4006-96cd-61ed5a7951fd?id=d9d21ebd-3049-4006-96cd-61ed5a7951fd

[Man in Black]

Yeah, you are right about all that. And I'd put Young ahead of Montana on my top qb list and I'd put Manning at the top. This list is a bit different (as I know you picked up on Jason).

Manning has improved greatly on his accuracy in the last 3rd of his career and has surpassed his arch rival (Brady) on that front - and that was all Brady had him on early. Brady relies on his accuracy and quick decision making (at the moment of release). That's why he breaks down completely under a decent pass rush. Never a better example of that than in the Pats one loss SB. The Giants D-Line destroyed Brady following a blue print Jason Taylor and my fins used to harass Tom for years. Manning doesn't crumble under such pressure he adapts instantly... and now he's got the accuracy to go with it.

Marino stands to me as (not even close) the best passer ever. When he got pissed off and in that zone... he could hit a bump on a gnat's ass at 50 yards. There are a few guys through the years that had great accuracy, but never at Dan's consistent level. What set Marino completely apart though - his quick release. That's a trait NONE of the other top guys had and it was what made him unstoppable. Many of his zillion TDs came inside the 5 yd line where most teams would run. Those were the plays I mentioned that you'd have to wait on a replay to even see what happened as the ball was snapped and then magically a FB,TE,RB or WR would be standing a yard deep in the end zone... official's hands raised.

There was one other guy I remember that had a release that rivaled Marino - Jeff George. Unfortunately George didn't have the accuracy to make it work and he seemed to be a hothead.

You are right about Montana - completely - and I've been saying it for years it was the system and its HOF lineup. What Joe had was calm and intelligence. Aaron Rodgers reminds me a lot of Joe Montana in his demeanor. Rodgers is like somebody put the mind of Montana in Brett Favre's body and he's better than either one of those guys.

In my what if category, speaking of systems: One guy that I think could have been up at the top of my qb list had he been in a better system for him - Randall Cunningham. In those 3-4 years he was tearing it up I don't remember there EVER being a more fun qb to watch than Rockin' Randall. He could throw it 70 yards (proven at qb challenge) and he ran like Marcus freakin' Allen. Those crazy leaps into the endzone had me (as a kid) launching myself into and over bushes, trees, cars etc...

Elway was no slouch passing either. He had one of the best deep balls ever... it reminded me of Warren Moon's always a spiral and seeming to float right into a perfect spot. Plus he had the power to get it wherever he wanted it. On top of that he had that Big Ben Rothlescantspellaburger ability to stay upright and deliver the ball on target even while taking direct hits from DTs and that's something Brady nor Manning can do. And in today's new NFL - Elway could easily be a 1,000 yard rusher.

That's what makes these guys all so interesting... they each did it with different tools and weapons. If they were all the same it wouldn't be near as much fun to think about.

[Man in Black]

Lol... you should capture that video and save it!!!


The problem with this guy (Elliot) he has no clue what he's talking about. He wrapped 2 dufus statements together in one in his original comment. I agree Tom Brady is one of the greatest ever, he's a notch better than Montana in my opinion. He's done a lot with very little talent around him. But... he's not at Peyton's level.

I mean, Jason, you and I have both said it many times. If we judge qbs by team achievments then Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, Phil Simms, Russel Wilson, Flacco, Bob Griese are all better qb's than Marino and all just as good as Manning. When you look at what Brady and Manning offer their teams... to anybody with half a decent football brain... Peyton is THE choice... in fact Brady was not even close to being the best qb on Lambeau Field that day.

[Jason]

So, Manning is now #1 for you? I won't argue that. He's on the brink for me, still. I still have Marino and Elway at #1, and Manning is the only one who is even close to rivaling that spot. Rodgers, though, yeah, when he's nearing the end of his career, I have little doubt that he'll be rivaling the big 3. Barring an enormous meltdown, he will easily be in my top ten, no question. Also, did you see that touchdown pass he threw against Chicago, I think it was? Where he fired an across-the-body throw fifty yards downfield in the perfect spot for a touchdown as he was being hit? That has got to be the best play I've seen all year.


Marino is the best pure passer ever, in my opinion. If that's all the QB position was about, he'd be my clear-cut #1. And I remember Jeff George. He had one of those once-in-a-generation freak arms almost like Elway did. I remember one QB challenge (and this was late in his career) when Elway fired the ball 80+ yards and almost threw it out of the boundaries. I can barely throw an NFL football half that distance. It's pretty incredible, especially when you sit there and compare it to yourself. Humbles you, really quick.

To be honest, I've never thought highly of Brady's accuracy. I have no doubt that the stat sheet says it's great, though. I've watched him make some great throws, but I also see him making an equal amount off off-target throws. If his guy isn't wide open (which he usually is), then it usually isn't a good sign, but most of his passes are those little dink-&-dunks to the running back or hitting Edelman/Welker in the slot and they'll break for big gains. I am still baffled at how Gronkowski is left open in every single game I watch. It's pure coaching. The outside linebacker playing zone will bite on Edelman's slot route and there goes Gronk up the middle, nobody in sight, 25 yards, easy. Belichick always calls for those little bump & runs and cross-routes at perfect times and they explode, generally when the corners or linebackers are in zone coverage, and it works almost every time. It's that system that makes players excel. But everyone is crediting Brady for making Kenbrell Thompkins and Aaron Dobson look so good, when they are also excelling in a well-balanced coaching system. Was anybody on Earth except me NOT surprised that Mark Sanchez would do well when Foles went down? It is a system, much like New England's. You could plug in any quarterback with enough patience, pocket-presence and decent decision making and they will do perfectly fine in a well-coached system. Ask Matt Cassel how much fun he's had since his one year in New England where he put up "Brady numbers".

Philly's is a bit different from New England's, but more fun to watch because the offense is so fast paced. I'm not sure how long it is going to hold up before opposing teams figures Chip Kelly out, though. I don't think Philly will go very far in the playoffs, to be honest. I see them winning one playoff game, max. I think it's just a matter of time before a high-balanced defense exposes Kelly's system, in my opinion. I could be wrong, and I'm enjoying it while it lasts, anyway. And Belichick's system has been going strong for 15 years.

To be honest, about that Elliot Harrison guy, I just don't think he has a great understanding of football. Which is a bold statement coming from a keyboard warrior, saying that about a guy who is actually employed by the NFL.
But taking away that bone-head statement about Brady's incessant whining making him better than Joe, his main argument against me was "He's won three Super Bowls. He's been to two other Super Bowls". No, "he" didn't. "They" did. This isn't the NBA where having that one great player can turn your team around. It is so rare to find that one player who can do that in the NFL. There are only 3 that come to mind, and if anyone has been listening to us in these threads, they'll know who they are by now. This sport relies so heavily on great coaching and intelligent players that when you get that one guy who just changes everything, you know he is special, and you have no choice but to build around that.

I know it's all subjective and totally just an opinion, but if Elliot's argument is as strong as that argument gets, people like us are going to pick apart his strategy for analyzing quarterback talent and destroy him every time.

[Man in Black]

Nah, if you go back and look at my qb rankings I did... somewhere on here... I've had Manning at the top all along.

It's a fun debate, and while I guess I think more of Brady's talent than you... I'm NOWHERE near up on him as much as the Elliot dude. And I don't think you were too harsh, that was one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard on the air. I think it's awesome that you called him on it and think you won the argument even though you didn't get to respond... he made it worse with his response... lol.

I actually thought Sanchez would do much better than he has. That offense compared to the Pats is freakin loaded in much the same way your Broncos are right now. They have so many talented wrs it ain't fair. Then they have a massive O-Line, multiple talented TE's and Shady McCoy and Sproles.

I personally think Sanchez is failing miserably by not putting up 50 a game. I always liked Sanchez too... wanted my Fins to draft him, but I'll have to admit he could/should be doing much better. The Eagles are getting what they want from him though: they are still winning and are driving his market up for next year.

Believe this or not but back in my late teens and 20's I could chuck a football over 60 yards (probably had a lot to do with the 2hr plus a day heavy weight workouts and creatine and protein shakes lol! I did always have a good arm and mechanics though). The guys I played with called me Elway because of what you mentioned. It used to tick me off cause I wanted to be Marino. Although my throwing motion was nearly identical to Troy Aikman. (I used that motion and mechanics to teach David how to throw at age 4, and now he's up over 60mph with a baseball... he's actually dangerous playing catch now).

I used to love those freakin' qb challenges, TV sucks now days... where is that shit at now? Bring it back!!! From my hazy memory I recall Elway and Cunningham killing at the distance throw. And remember Favre doing the qb impressions and doing that knock kneed walk of Elways? Those were the days.

[Jason]

I do remember you having Manning at #1 at one point. I thought you changed it back, though.

Yeah, he definitely made it worse with his response, but I think less opinionated fans are more likely to believe what an NFL analyst says over an internet troll.

The football I threw 40+ was NFL regulation size. My hands are not enormous. They are average-sized hands, and I can barely get a full, proper grip on it. A lot of that zip is gone when I can't get a full grasp.

David can throw 60?
I was at the fair a few years back after I injured my rib cage. I was finally up and about and able to do stuff. There was a baseball throwing challenge that said if you can get over 70 they'd give you a big prize. I got close to 60, but I think the thing was rigged.

I've looked into those arm mechanic teachings. There are a lot of useful ones on youtube.

[Man in Black]

Yeah, David is approaching 60. He was at 50 last season and he could hit 60 going all out on the machines you are talking about. I suspect he will be throwing a baseball in the 60s at ease this year. We have yet to get out to the field for him to practice... he has definitely got a top notch arm.

I can't remember where I had Manning ranked last time, I vaguely remember now that you mention it feeling disloyal and putting Marino back on top, but still shows you how much I think of Manning's talent... now I'm confused... but I'm always confused these days lol... The way the league is now with all the passing rules I don't think we can fairly compare the two eras anymore.


Deflategate

How stupid does ESPN think we are? Now some of them are saying it was the weather that caused the balls to be 2lbs under inflated. What? Even if that was possible, which it's not - do they think we don't that the Colts and their footballs were playing in the same weather that day? Holy cow that's the dumbest excuse ever.

Link to ESPN Video below

screen.yahoo.com/espn-pulls-sports-science-deflate-104944669.html

My take on the whole thing is that I'm not worried about anything the Patriots did. I've long known they were cheaters just like the Cowboys and Niners of the Nineties. What bothers me is that the officials handled these balls for an entire half and let it go on until the Colts complained. Worst case scenario to me is that Belicheat nor Brady knew the deal and the officials did... that would seriously burn me on the NFL and it's something I've long suspected by doing the math. Best case scenario for the league is that the Patriots did know (which they probably did) and the officials still let it go... and that IS NOT a good scenario still. Thing is the officials did know, that is a fact because they handled them and they are paid to inspect footballs and to know the inflation. Plus they discarded them at half time. Those officials should be blamed and fired along with the Patriots losing draft picks.

[Jason]

Another asterisk for the Pats. Love it. The Super Bowl will only be extremely sucky, but I am pulling for Seattle, of course. I hope Sherman does some stunt where he picks up the football on the first drive and inspect it.

There is no way New England didn't know. Analysts were taking the heat to Brady, saying they believe he's lying, which is a bold move on their part. I'd be afraid as an employee of the NFL to make a comment that would get them bad press. But I agree with then, Brady is lying through his teeth. Who knows how long they've been doing this... Belichick admitted to starting spygate in 2000, so it went on for 8 seasons before they caught onto it. They discovered playbooks, which was really the big issue there.

I was actually rooting for the Patriots in their first Super Bowl. I used to feel sorry for them when I was a kid. They were the laughing stock of the NFL. I was glad to see them beat Oakland, even though we all know Oakland should've won that game. I didn't think my perspective of a team could change so drastically. It's one thing to manipulate the salary cap or take steroids, but something about breaking the rules to give yourself an illegal advantage doesn't sit well with me. Stealing playbooks was what really did it. I will never cheer for that team as long as Brady and that entire coaching staff is there.